Newcastle Coal
| Please note: Forum content is not written or endorsed by Rising Tide. Anyone can make an account and post a rant in this section of the website. Don't blame us if what you read is incoherent, wrong, insane, or offensive! |
You people (Rising Tide), promote Inaccurate Information as much as anyone else. The moron who swam out to the Dredge in Newcastle Harbour was knackered by the time he got there. The police were able to rescue the fool from suffering the ignominious saga of floating out to sea along with the rest of the jellyfish. Thwarted by the Police? They saved his sorry ass.
Am I amused as yet.... probably, hehe he. If you people were serious about climate change etc etc, you should (in handwriting, anyone know how to do that anymore?), send your complaint directly to the PM and Govenor General. Visit your local politician, armed with properly researched documentation to substantiate your claims, and not those that ask to fill the coffers of an organisation that has virtually no specific relevance in todays parlance. You should be more concerned by the current attempts to privatise electricity and water.
If you are serious about change, and not what you may profit by, I would suggest that you research Thorium based power instead of Uranium based power.
Cheers,
Mike
mike, Lets be clear, the
mike,
Lets be clear, the reason you know about climate change is because of people like Rising Tide and their non-letter writing activities. All the polls suggest that the public know there is a problem, and want it fixed - and it sounds like your in the "lets fix it" category. Yet your solution, writing to the PM, hasn't seen any progress for 11 years.
So why not check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolence to get another perspective. Then, rather than criticise those who are making a difference, focus your venting on those who are holding things up.
simon
(and i'm not from Rising Tide)
Being Clear
Hi Simon,
I am not from rising tide either.
The reasons I am aware of Climatic changes that are, and have been occurring for quite a period of years, have had absolutely nothing to do with "rising tide" nor their brand of information dissemination. I do my own research on matters that are of interest to me. I have personally and most probably, created more headaches for more politicians than "rising tide" combined in this country. To do anything effectively, as I had previously stated, do your research properly and couch all of the information as costs in dollar terms. Most people, especially politicians, can only think that way, eg; Is there a dollar/jobs to be made/lost, or what votes will it get me mentality…... I note the reference about ineffective letter writing over the last eleven years and I feel that I need to point out that Mr Howard et el, are now removed from office.
I am not criticising anyone making any legitimate protest on any issue, I am merely pointing out a more effective method. Lose the partytime atmosphere and become professional in the approach and presentation, of the well documented concerns. Visit you local member etc, the way people used to communicate (face to face), you may not remember those type of days but I do and it remains the most effective way, to explore any problem and possible resolution. On the question of Thorium vs Uranium vs Coal power and pollution, I would suggest again, that people do some research on the matter to become correctly and better informed, and then make your "well documented" approach to the local pollie etc etc.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike oh mike
Hi Mike,
Saturdays action coincided with an internation day of action on climate change. People from around the world were participating in non violent direct action to draw attention to the issues around climate change. Newcastle is the worlds largest coal exporter, as im sure you know. How on earth are people going to know of this hypocrisy in the goverments position on climate change ( going to fight it, yet expand exporting ) without some media attention drawn to it? I doubt a group of people sitting writing a letter is going to get on the news! Aside from this, it is time to go futher than letter writing. The lobbying has been going on for many years, and Rising Tide has worked very hard on this. How do you think the issue of coal exports and climate change has become a political point? Its because iof groups like Rising Tide working their bums off to make it happen, and to put pressure on the political parties. Unfortunately they are not responding fast enough so further steps have to be taken in conjunction witth all the other work that has and is being done.
Just for your information, the person who swam out to the dredger was certainly not rescued by the police...they didn't touch him. He strongly swam back and had hardly broken a sweat. He is an extremly fit man and that swim was a walk in the park for him.
Mike, get your facts straight.
first: Rising tide does not profit from anything that it does. I does raise some funds, but these go straight back into the campaign. No-one is paid for what they do. A number of the volunteers give a large percentage of their wages from other jobs as donations, as well as actually doing the work.
Secondly: we're not stupid. We know the power of a hand written letter. That's why rising tide collected over 700 individually hand written letters at stalls around the region in the months leading up to the Anvil Hill public submission close. I think a similar number was collected for the Loader. The fact is that even hand written letters and direct lobbying don't do much these days. Direct action is needed as a way of empowering people to take real political action on all levels, as well as briging much needed public attention to the Loader/hunter valley coal chain expansion issue.
On thorium: yeah, great, and get locked in to another peak-minerals problem. Sure, you'll have a long time to deal with it, but who says we won't just leave the problem to the last minute, like we have with peak-oil? not to mention that the shit is still radioactive, albeit far less than uranium, AND you'd still have to mine it, destroying local environments and communities.
Lastly: are you sure we should be fighting the privatisation of power? In general, I'd agree, I think privatisation is stupid, but in this case, I'm wondering if the government isn't off loading an industry that has huge amounts of public opposition, and may stay to decline in the very near future? Just a thought...
ned
Photo of angry old mike - get a life (and have a shave)
Mike oh mike
Yes, I know it is my name, I need a new girlfriend and with words like that I wish you were her. Hypocrisy stops and has nowhere to go when you present facts. Placing "pressure" on anyone does not work anymore and is considered harrassment these days. A more considered approach is required that is based in fact, not emotive issues.
Cheers,
Mike
facts straight.
Hi Ned,
Personally, I do not believe that you know what you are crapping on about. That is the crux of the matter I have been espousing.
Cheers,
Mike
(and have a shave)
Hi Paul, I am surprised that you were able to get that rare pic of me, I have a much better one (just prior to the shower of course), that I am willing to share. Environmentally
Conscious of course, (biodegradable soap) and shaved.
Cheers,
Mike
you lose
Ahh, Mike, you've thrown in the towel! Ned actually addressed the flimsy arguments you made, point by point, and how did you respond? Rejection. No arguments. No ifs, buts, or maybes. Simply "you don't know what you're talking about". Sorry dude, but his comment was heavier on fact than anything you've written (you clearly don't know anything about Rising Tide, the power of the coal lobby, the monolithic inertia of the political system, or the indespensible role of non-violent direct action in acheiving social and environmental victories in the past. Oh and by the way, the bloke that swam out to the dredger on Saturday stayed there for a while trying to swim past the police boat, gave up, swam back in, got his gear back on and walked away. There was no sorry-ass-saving about it).
Now, if I thought my time would be well spent doing so, I would rave on a bit now about how putting arguments in economic terms is a waste of time when there is more money to be made in killing the biosphere than saving it, I would argue quite passionately that a dollar value cannot be placed on species or human lives, and I would huff indignantly at your accusations of fact-looseness. As one of the primary fact-compilers of our little collective, I would reject that and challenge you to give some examples of false statements in anything we've written.
But that would be a waste of time, 'cause you're clearly not the listening type.
You Lose
Steve Phillips / Ned
Sorry for the delay guys, Have been busy, Back now though, and in reply to the aspersions etc etc ……
“first: Rising tide does not profit from anything that it does. I does raise some funds, but these go straight back into the campaign. No-one is paid for what they do. A number of the volunteers give a large percentage of their wages from other jobs as donations, as well as actually doing the work.”
- Assumed Facts: If Rising Tide does not profit from anything, who pays for the website/hosting/editorial/equipment etc? The taxpayer?.
“Secondly: we're not stupid. We know the power of a hand written letter. That's why rising tide collected over 700 individually hand written letters at stalls around the region in the months leading up to the Anvil Hill public submission close. I think a similar number was collected for the Loader. The fact is that even hand written letters and direct lobbying don't do much these days.”
- I never stated the people were stupid, just not sufficiently or correctly guided with the correct information. The power of a whole “700 handwritten letters” is a waste of time. You need 300,000 handwritten letters to the Govenor General expressing distaste to change a Government. 700?. You have no idea of the value of a handwritten letter. If this “organisation” wishes to have any worthwhile input, in any shape or form, you must become professional in direction and presentation.
“Direct action is needed as a way of empowering people to take real political action on all levels, as well as bringing much needed public attention to the Loader/hunter valley coal chain expansion issue.”
- “Direct Action”, is just one tool amongst other more useful tools, in a properly organised and committed structure.
“On thorium: yeah, great, and get locked in to another peak-minerals problem.”
- You must be joking…. Have you taken a reasonable look at thorium based power versus coal and it`s greater value to the world than uranium?
“Sure, you'll have a long time to deal with it, but who says we won't just leave the problem to the last minute, like we have with peak-oil? not to mention that the shit is still radioactive, albeit far less than uranium, AND you'd still have to mine it, destroying local environments and communities.”
- Peak Oil is here, Right Now… get used to it, the greater costs and the lies perpetrated to keep the masses growing alongside mushrooms are real and every day promoted. “Thorium extraction destroying local environments/communities etc……” What? Do your research a little better.
“Lastly: are you sure we should be fighting the privatisation of power? In general, I'd agree, I think privatisation is stupid, but in this case, I'm wondering if the government isn't off loading an industry that has huge amounts of public opposition, and may stay to decline in the very near future? Just a thought...”
- Fighting privatisation of power?
Yes…. NSW is broke, After power generation is sold off and the realisations applied to the “roads and hospitals”, what gets sold off to pay for the next important fix ups? Water??? The questions are; what is happening to the money of this state? Public money into Private enterprises still ??? When the NSW state finance says NSW made a lousy $513Mill profit last year as a step in the right direction, every voter in NSW should be very worried. Whatever you may call public opposition to coal powered lighting will disappear as quick as the lights not coming on tomorrow without it. Get Real, and get professional.
“I would argue quite passionately that a dollar value cannot be placed on species or human lives”
- I would wholeheartedly agree with that view. That is not, however, the view of the “masters” we live under, as it is that we all are classified as “human capital”. What side of the balance sheet are you on ???
ps: Never think I have ever thrown in any towel at any time. Lose? Me? Not as Yet and Never Will.
Cheers,
Mike
wait a second..
Hi Mike,
Why don't you collect 300,000 letters to the Governor-General?
cheerio
Steve
the costs and benefits of argument
Hi Mike,
It's good to see someone thinking critically and engaging in vigorous debate, thanks for your contributions. Your motives still seem a little unclear: what exactly do you want to do? Just argue? Or are you trying to chagnge Rising Tide in some way? If the latter, why not start a climate change action group yourself, and put your ideas into action so that the community may realise some good from them? Since you don't know much about the preparation, thought, analysis and reflection that Rising Tide undertakes about our activities, your challenges are not going anywhere -- they are too wide of the mark. We are not deluded about the problems this community faces, but we are willing to use our time and energy to the best effect we can. There are certainly things we could do better, but given what little power and influence we began with, we are actually quite proud of the impact we have had. One group can't do everything, however, and I suggest that if you see some gaps, you should try and fill them, rather than berating us from the moral high ground.
salaam... stay vigillant.
George
Hi Mike, I admit first that
Hi Mike, I admit first that I hold an interest in a number coal companies which mine in the Hunter Valley and other parts of NSW and QLD. Not in the short term but for nearly thirty years.
Coal as a resource, all those years ago, had few alternatives and without it the world would not have grown to the extent it has today. In fact there have been improvements over the years in the way coal has been used, firing power stations rather than being used in individual houses. So that has cut down on smog in Europe, America etc.,
If Australia does not supply coal then other countries would and the quality would be inferior to Australian Coal, the words of John Howard.
The economy of NSW and the rest of Australia would be severely harmed if coal exports were curtailed or stopped. This would certainly be so for the next 30 years until nuclear power takes over.
Rising Tide would be more strongly supported if it was able to explain how it could come up with the millions of dollars to cover losses from tenement fees, royalties, taxes etc., if it could, then support would rise.
The majority of coal companies in Australia pay 20 cents per tonne towards the development of Ultra Clean Coal (UCC) technology. This is likely to be available in about 4 years time, and as it uses anthracite, it will be clean and hopefully acceptable to Rising Tide.
On the matter of extending the Newcastle Port, there is a big upside, there will be fewer ships at anchor and therefore will itself help reduce pollution.
re: mike
Re: Money, profit:
Dude. There are no assumed facts here from my end. I work with rising tide (a group of between 7 and 15 people, depending on what week you ask). The website is hosted by envirogeek (as you see at the bottom of the page). Enviro geek is pretty much me and oliver. We pay $30/month for webhosting out of our own pockets, and accept donation sometimes. We don't make any profit from the environmental websites we host; we make a net loss.
Re: letters and professionalism
We aren't professional lobbyists. I for one never will be. If you want to see professionalism in coal export/climate activism, do it yourself, or help another group who already is doing that (CAN do some good stuff, and are much more "professional" than us). We'd love you to. the more groups and individuals doing as well as talking the merrier.
Re: Thorium peak
It wouldn't matter if thorium made up 50% of the earth's crust. If we use something up faster than it can be replenished (either naturally or otherwise), we will eventually reach a peak, and a decline, and eventually we will run out. The only difference having a greater quantity of something makes is that the peak and decline come later, but it's possible that the peak would be higher, and the decline steeper. No mineral solution as an energy source can ever escape that. Not even fusion, if that ever works.
Re: Local impacts of mining
I've been to mines, I've seen the local environmental impacts. I've read stuff on the increase in respiratory illnesses, and I've seen the economic damage that mines can have on communities. I've stood alongside farmers against the expansion of mining the the gunnedah basin. I REALLY hate it when people tell me to "do my research a little better" without actually giving any reasons, agruments, or figures that go against what I've already said.
I agree with you on privatisiation absolutely, we should definitely be fighting it. I still think the government is cared, and trying to off load though, as well as being greedy arseholes.
In regards to you final comment, I dunno if I'm even on the balance sheet. if I am, I'm definitely not on the side of any "masters". I like to think I'm on the other side of the piece of paper - the one with less straight lines. bu maybe that's just me being a trite smart arse :)
With the coming world
With the coming world depression it looks as if the main coal problem will be with thermal coal, and the PCI coal and coking coals should reduce in supply because of the reduced demand for steel.
China is still opening new thermal coal power stations and thereby increasing demand. Most of the supply of thermal coal being home grown.
Australia sends most of its thermal coal exported, to Japan, South Korea and the rest of Asia, excluding China.
How Rising Tide can reduce thermal coal exports, whilst replacing the money and jobs lost, looks to be a self defeating argument.
Reductio ad absurdum
China's demand may be increasing, but that doesn't mean we have to increase supply. If we decrease supply now (it's going to happen eventually anyway), then the price will go up, and renewable energies will become even more competitive than they already are. Hell, if the coal corps were a bit canny, they'd do that anyway, and make more profit from less product.
The jobs argument is simply wrong. There are more jobs in renewables per unit of energy produced than in coal (2-3 times according to the WWF, and up to 6 times, according to a greenpeace report, if I remeber correctly). Rising Tide has never called for the immediate cessation of coal operations, RT supports a government/coal export levy funded transition for workers currently in the industry to renewable energy jobs, or other fields.
The (us) coal industry PR machine
The (US) coal industry is about to take their cynical PR effort to new heights, with a $20 million online media blitz for "shaping public attitudes" on coal.
You know what that means -- a whole lot more misleading statements and cynical talk about progress to make people think coal is "ok," while the industry lobbies behind the scenes to limit regulations and slow advancements on truly clean energy.
Their misinformation effort won't help repower America with clean electricity. We need to be ready to respond. You can help take the coal industry to task for any misleading claims, just by staying in touch with Reality:
Subscribe to The Reality Blog RSS Feed: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/TheRealityBlog
Follow Reality on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/ThisIsReality
part email from ThisIsReality.org
Mike,your points are hardly worth addressing because.........
By the time politicians act on the tedious and time consuming process that you are suggesting, the planet will have been well and truly f---ked over. They have all the facts, many researchers have publicly presented evidence of global warming and still many governments including our own feel no compulsion to act. Why? because of the huge corporate interests involved. You seem to have a sweet and naive view of the way governments operate, Mikey boy.
Eknien
Gee it's cold today.
Gee it's cold today.
Glad to hear that stanley.
Glad to hear that stanley. Hope you have your slippers on.